Curse

Mister_Smiley · Aug 01, 2009, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Why Asura? Why not Mursaat? Or the Seers?

250 years, Asura because it looks like something that they would build or design. Mursaat are ether hiding or basically whipped out. Seers, well there are very very few of them. So i beleive it is Asura.

Eliz Genevieve · Aug 01, 2009, 08:38 PM // 20:38

That wasn't my point.

What I meant is that we have nothing that indicates that kind of structure by the Asura, or even a Dragon near Asura buildings.

But putting the Seers/Mursaat further, like you said, 250 years. A lot changes in 250 years. Not only the Asura but also the Mursaat and the Seers.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 01, 2009, 11:43 PM // 23:43

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Originally Posted by Free Runner

I said that the way the Movement of the World explains these actions makes it sound more evil than other dragons.

Key word right there, and your wording threw me off.

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Originally Posted by Mister_Smiley

I think is picture could be some form of the technology that the Asura where using, maybe a power source, maybe not, but i think the picture is more about the dragon shown, its called "stormlord" for a reason, maybe the dragon is so powerfully that he creates lighting or storms around him, thus the name "stormlord' Of course this all depends if the concept art is even related to guild wars2

Long sentence. And the dragon does create lightning - look at its mouth.

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Originally Posted by Eliz Genevieve

I read it somewhere that Regina confirmed that the Stormlord was gw2 concept art by Kekai.. gotta link it.

Yes, do link, the only confirmed GW2 concept art I know of is "Snow Battle."

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Originally Posted by Mister_Smiley

Mursaat are ether hiding or basically whipped out. Seers, well there are very very few of them. So i beleive it is Asura.

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Originally Posted by Eliz Genevieve

That wasn't my point.

What I meant is that we have nothing that indicates that kind of structure by the Asura, or even a Dragon near Asura buildings.

But putting the Seers/Mursaat further, like you said, 250 years. A lot changes in 250 years. Not only the Asura but also the Mursaat and the Seers.

The Mursaat survive, and even if they didn't, their buildings most likely would last a while. Seers are unknown fate. And why just consider those three races? There are so many structures out there we do not know the origin of, and there are even more places we have not visited.

If you're going to argue it belonging to a specific race, you should do more than that - like Leon argued for it being the Iron Citadel. Simply saying "well, we don't know enough bout this race, and that race is near gone, so it must be this race" is rather poor thinking, as there are many more races out there.

I stick with Augury Rock on the pretense of shape, the bottom looks similar to the Mesa, and the dragon could pass for the size of "Grothmar" while we don't see its back and the "desert dragon" being a dragon of lightning does make sense. And we must also consider that the other name for "Grothmar" - "Water dragon" - is only named such due to the concept art, which looks like it was intended to be in a sea or the like, so we cannot think of "Grothmar" as the "water dragon" as well, and with knowing the chance of "Grothmar" being the desert dragon is exceedingly high, then we must consider what else it could control - and air/lightning fits well with something which corrupts while flying.

Eliz Genevieve · Aug 02, 2009, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Yes, do link, the only confirmed GW2 concept art I know of is "Snow Battle."

Can't find it. Then again, I may have messed up and confused with the confirmation of the 'Snow Battle' one. Scratch what I said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Mursaats survive, and even if they didn't, their buildings most likely would last a while. Seers are unknown fate. And why just consider those three races? There are so many structures out there we do not know the origin of, and there are even more places we have not visited.

If you're going to argue it belonging to a specific race, you should do more than that - like Leon argued for it being the Iron Citadel. Simply saying "well, we don't know enough bout this race, and that race is near gone, so it must be this race" is rather poor thinking, as there are many more races out there.

Again. That wasn't my point. I just pointed those two out so I could compare them to the Asura in Smiley's point of view.

Gmr Leon · Aug 02, 2009, 12:19 AM // 00:19

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Mursaat survive

No s. Mursaat remains the same from the transition to plural from singular. (And while Anet doesn't endorse it, I still stand steadfast in my belief that Asura should be the same.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I stick with Augury Rock on the pretense of shape, the bottom looks similar to the Mesa, and the dragon could pass for the size of "Grothmar" while we don't see its back and the "desert dragon" being a dragon of lightning does make sense. And we must also consider that the other name for "Grothmar" - "Water dragon" - is only named such due to the concept art, which looks like it was intended to be in a sea or the like, so we cannot think of "Grothmar" as the "water dragon" as well, and with knowing the chance of "Grothmar" being the desert dragon is exceedingly high, then we must consider what else it could control - and air/lightning fits well with something which corrupts while flying.

While it is still just concept art..I think I have an excellent argument for why the dragon probably isn't Grothmar, which should have been apparent from the beginning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Movement of the World, Dragons.

The ground blackened from the dragon's presence and any creatures caught within the wind of its breath twisted and changed.

Mister_Smiley · Aug 02, 2009, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Well ya in 250 years a lot has changed, so Eliz does have point that it could be from some other race. But i still stand that its not Mursaat or Seer.

But i don't think anyone has pointed this out yet, now it could just be the way the designed, but if you look really closely, the dragon seams to have a metallic type armor over him or and the middle thing that is comming out of the rock is the same color, so it is possible that the dragon is the one that caused it.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 02, 2009, 03:17 AM // 03:17

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

No s. Mursaat remains the same from the transition to plural from singular. (And while Anet doesn't endorse it, I still stand steadfast in my belief that Asura should be the same.)

Meh, small typo. Shush you grammar nazi.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

While it is still just concept art..I think I have an excellent argument for why the dragon probably isn't Grothmar, which should have been apparent from the beginning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Movement of the World, Dragons.

The ground blackened from the dragon's presence and any creatures caught within the wind of its breath twisted and changed.

I'll just point one thing out:

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Originally Posted by Myself

and air/lightning fits well with something which corrupts while flying.

We only have hints that it corrupts while flying. Nothing says that, while it is landed, it corrupts everything. I would find it very hard to believe that "Grothmar" is always corrupting the very earth and creatures around it. It is either on it's own will, or while flying (perhaps caused by flapping his wings).

Also, if that is Augury Rock, isn't it a little, oh say, dark? Especially the part the dragon is touching. Though one could counter-argue that it is the lighting. However, a counter-argument for the counter-argument would be the right side of the rock is also dark(ening), and that spot would naturally be lit up from the lighting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister_Smiley

Well ya in 250 years a lot has changed, so Eliz does have point that it could be from some other race. But i still stand that its not Mursaat or Seer.

We never see Seerian structures, so we cannot say whether something is or isn't with certainty. Mursaat, we can a little bit, but that is still iffy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister_Smiley

But i don't think anyone has pointed this out yet, now it could just be the way the designed, but if you look really closely, the dragon seams to have a metallic type armor over him or and the middle thing that is comming out of the rock is the same color, so it is possible that the dragon is the one that caused it.

The "disk" is not the same color as the dragon, and it doesn't look like the dragon is wearing any sort of armor, it's just the texture of his skin that is throwing you off - though at some portions, it does seem like he has some sort of shell or chitinous hide, very similar to that of insects, or possibly of "Grothmar." (Again, as we don't see the dragon's back, or "Grothmar's" front, hard to tell.)

Gmr Leon · Aug 02, 2009, 04:22 AM // 04:22

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Meh, small typo.

A typo that has appeared repeatedly and consistently whenever you're describing multiple Mursaat, right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I'll just point one thing out:
We only have hints that it corrupts while flying. Nothing says that, while it is landed, it corrupts everything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Movement of the World, Dragons. Again.

The ground blackened from the dragon's presence and any creatures caught within the wind of its breath twisted and changed.

I think it's pretty bloody obvious, that it does in fact, corrupt everything around it when it's ground-bound.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I would find it very hard to believe that "Grothmar" is always corrupting the very earth and creatures around it. It is either on it's own will, or while flying (perhaps caused by flapping his wings).

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Movement of the World, Dragons. And again.

The ground blackened from the dragon's presence and any creatures caught within the wind of its breath twisted and changed.

These Ancient Dragons have powers that rival the Gods. Malchor raised a sunken peninsula from the depths of the Sea of Sorrows, for Quetzalcoatl's sake. We have what appears to be a non-sentient, non-sapient, nearly all-pervading entity, the Mists, that spawns forth life, and, within its very center, holds a location that can be used to go anywhere and anywhen, and you're about to tell me that an Ancient Dragon that has powers rivaling a God wouldn't always be corrupting practically everything around it while not in flight or when it's not of its will? Not only that, but possibly corrupting these things so that they become its servants, which you earlier argued for.

Why on Tyria wouldn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Also, if that is Augury Rock, isn't it a little, oh say, dark? Especially the part the dragon is touching.

And that's what I get for not looking at the image prior to posing that argument. However, I still stand by my previous arguments that there are what appear to be mountains in the distance, bits of jutting rock in front of those mountains that don't appear like anything we've seen in the desert around Augury Rock, there's a giant metal disc or sphere on the front or side or back of it, there aren't two slabs of rock juxtaposed off the sides of the metal disc or sphere which would suggest the area we cracked open during our trial of Ascension, it's far narrower than Augury Rock towards the top as Augury Rock is a tad broader than what is depicted there, and, of course, it's not lying in a depression with water in front of it.

Oh, and also, a pro-argument against it being Grothmar is that the birds aren't twisted or changed into some strange evil crow assault squadron, while they appear to be clearly in range of its breath.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 02, 2009, 05:28 AM // 05:28

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

A typo that has appeared repeatedly and consistently whenever you're describing multiple Mursaat, right.

Actually, I usually say Mursaat for plural, or the Mursaat.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I think it's pretty bloody obvious, that it does in fact, corrupt everything around it when it's ground-bound.

Which then puts it with the other dragons in which it isn't all the time. Thus, your point was?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

These Ancient Dragons have powers that rival the Gods. Malchor raised a sunken peninsula from the depths of the Sea of Sorrows, for Quetzalcoatl's sake. We have what appears to be a non-sentient, non-sapient, nearly all-pervading entity, the Mists, that spawns forth life, and, within its very center, holds a location that can be used to go anywhere and anywhen, and you're about to tell me that an Ancient Dragon that has powers rivaling a God wouldn't always be corrupting practically everything around it while not in flight or when it's not of its will? Not only that, but possibly corrupting these things so that they become its servants, which you earlier argued for.

Why on Tyria wouldn't it?

How are we to know their power is everlasting? Certainly seems that the gods' power isn't - if a group of heroes can take down a god, chained or not, there then means there are limitations. The dragons' rival but not necessarily exceed the gods, and they by far are never mentioned to rival the Mists.

Aside from the argument of them not being able to constantly corrupt and twist (which, by the way, due to the pure laws of physics, no being can have an endless supply of energy - not even the Mists would, and I theorize that they don't, but use the energy of "destroyed" souls from the Rift).

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

However, I still stand by my previous arguments that there are what appear to be mountains in the distance,

I still say those are the wings. Massive wings don't just disappear into fog and get replaced by mountains. And just below would be clouds. The rest of the work is cloudy, so too would there, I'd assume. Also, there are mountains, though not huge, in what that direction would be if what we see would be Augury Rock and the disc is facing the outpost known as Augury Rock. Specifically, the Blazeridge Mountains. Though, again, not that huge of mountains (and no, not seen in game doesn't mean much of anything, as that was in Prophecies when the Blazeridge got so little focus).

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

bits of jutting rock in front of those mountains that don't appear like anything we've seen in the desert around Augury Rock

Aurgury rock is in a place of declined land, known as the Mesa. If any creature such size were to step there, those cliffs which boarder the Mesa could easily collapse. But then again, it is concept art which is almost never specific to the actual game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

there's a giant metal disc or sphere on the front or side or back of it, there aren't two slabs of rock juxtaposed off the sides of the metal disc or sphere which would suggest the area we cracked open during our trial of Ascension, it's far narrower than Augury Rock towards the top as Augury Rock is a tad broader than what is depicted there

I'll give you the two slabs of rock - but I counter-argue with two things: Dragon-caused destruction, and/or concept art.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

, and, of course, it's not lying in a depression with water in front of it.

A bit foggy and I do see what could be a bit of an incline, which would go with the above of dragon (or something else) causing the cliffs to topple, leaving shallow inclines and a few jutting rocks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Oh, and also, a pro-argument against it being Grothmar is that the birds aren't twisted or changed into some strange evil crow assault squadron, while they appear to be clearly in range of its breath.

First, other side of his head, though poor argument, second, and much better argument: They are too small to get a real good look at, are you sure they are not corrupted/twisted? At least one of them doesn't look like a normal bird to me (it actually has the shape of an airplane... Middle left of the flock - looks like two, but one still is oddly shaped for a bird).

Another thing on the birds - and in fact the whole - the art focuses on the dragon and the giant rock (specifically, the dragon and the disc in the rock it seems). So the birds would get little unusual detail to it, whether concept art or not, and the surroundings would also get less focus onto it. Again, if it is GW2 concept art of Augury Rock and "Grothmar," it won't be to the tee of what GW1 looks like, nor of what GW2 will look like.

Gmr Leon · Aug 02, 2009, 06:18 AM // 06:18

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Actually, I usually say Mursaat for plural, or the Mursaat.

Eh, must just be recently.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Which then puts it with the other dragons in which it isn't all the time. Thus, your point was?

Did your thought consistency drop? Just because it corrupts stuff while on ground, doesn't mean it doesn't corrupt stuff while in the air. It simply does both. Doesn't need to be one or the other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

How are we to know their power is everlasting? Certainly seems that the gods' power isn't - if a group of heroes can take down a god, chained or not, there then means there are limitations.

Er..Actually, the power, at least as in the essence, of the Gods, appears to be. So long as there's someone to absorb it nearby, that is. Even then, I don't think it would necessarily disappear after destroying the entire world. Which, by the way, how would Abaddon's death release enough power to destroy Tyria? We were technically on a completely different realm, somewhere in the Mists. I suppose he actually did bring the two closer together, close enough so that the release of his power would destroy both.

Besides that..It may not be everlasting, but that wasn't my point..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The dragons' rival but not necessarily exceed the gods, and they by far are never mentioned to rival the Mists.

..And neither was it my point that they exceeded it, I'd think you'd know better than to think that when it comes to my views on the Ancient Dragons. My point was, if their power can rival a God's, I see no reason that it cannot be capable of generating a constant sphere of corruption.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Aside from the argument of them not being able to constantly corrupt and twist (which, by the way, due to the pure laws of physics, no being can have an endless supply of energy - not even the Mists would, and I theorize that they don't, but use the energy of "destroyed" souls from the Rift).

Well..Actually..If they're just a magnet for energy, or something of that nature..They could, possibly have an endless supply. Primordus has already displayed that it radiates magic, or rather, bleeds magic, suggesting they might have a more intimate connection with the Mists that transcends the barriers imposed by the Bloodstones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I still say those are the wings. Massive wings don't just disappear into fog and get replaced by mountains. And just below would be clouds. The rest of the work is cloudy, so too would there, I'd assume. Also, there are mountains, though not huge, in what that direction would be if what we see would be Augury Rock and the disc is facing the outpost known as Augury Rock. Specifically, the Blazeridge Mountains. Though, again, not that huge of mountains (and no, not seen in game doesn't mean much of anything, as that was in Prophecies when the Blazeridge got so little focus).

We have entities of fire, water, ice, stone, igneous rock, plantlife, and what would appear to be pure energy in the Margonites. An Ancient Dragon can't have fog for wings? Also, I think it's stretching it to say those are the Blazeridge Mountains. Look at the distance from Augury Rock to the Blazeridge Mountains again, it's quite a distance. And that's ignoring the visibility in-game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Aurgury rock is in a place of declined land, known as the Mesa. If any creature such size were to step there, those cliffs which boarder the Mesa could easily collapse. But then again, it is concept art which is almost never specific to the actual game.

And I'm well aware it won't be completely accurate, but it's going to have details that we're familiar with. Currently, disregarding both our arguments, this looks like nothing we've seen in-game. Also, Augury Rock is the outpost, I was using it due to your usage of it, so I wouldn't confuse you. The Mesa is actually the stone outcropping we're talking about, the place where the Trial of Ascension takes place. Also, it can fly, and it looks to me like it just flew and grabbed on to the side of the stone outcropping, so really, I doubt it stopped on the cliffs, and then moved on to the outcropping.

Edit: And also, yes, I realize, I should stop just glancing at the image in between quoted portions or responses.

Again, I think you're stretching what little we can derive from this piece. Grasping at straws in other words.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I'll give you the two slabs of rock - but I counter-argue with two things: Dragon-caused destruction, and/or concept art.

Again, I think that first argument is grasping at straws.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

A bit foggy and I do see what could be a bit of an incline, which would go with the above of dragon (or something else) causing the cliffs to topple, leaving shallow inclines and a few jutting rocks.

As I also think this is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

First, other side of his head, though poor argument, second, and much better argument: They are too small to get a real good look at, are you sure they are not corrupted/twisted? At least one of them doesn't look like a normal bird to me (it actually has the shape of an airplane... Middle left of the flock - looks like two, but one still is oddly shaped for a bird).

Another thing on the birds - and in fact the whole - the art focuses on the dragon and the giant rock (specifically, the dragon and the disc in the rock it seems). So the birds would get little unusual detail to it, whether concept art or not, and the surroundings would also get less focus onto it. Again, if it is GW2 concept art of Augury Rock and "Grothmar," it won't be to the tee of what GW1 looks like, nor of what GW2 will look like.

Of course it's a poor argument. Both our arguments are poor, Hades, all of our arguments are poor, since we're trying to extract information from a piece of concept artwork, that may not even be related to GW2, or may even make the final cut of GW2. Sure, we have a haystack with which to grasp at straws at, but that doesn't mean one of the straws will be the needle. Torment, we've probably already pulled all the straws, or burned the haystack by this point.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 02, 2009, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Did your thought consistency drop? Just because it corrupts stuff while on ground, doesn't mean it doesn't corrupt stuff while in the air. It simply does both. Doesn't need to be one or the other.

That's not what I was getting at, what I was getting at I also mentioned point blank below that, which was that it wouldn't be constant, which, thus, would bring up the possibility of "Grothmar" not corrupting/twisting in that scene depicted, assuming, again, that is GW2 concept art with "Grothmar."

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Er..Actually, the power, at least as in the essence, of the Gods, appears to be. So long as there's someone to absorb it nearby, that is. Even then, I don't think it would necessarily disappear after destroying the entire world. Which, by the way, how would Abaddon's death release enough power to destroy Tyria? We were technically on a completely different realm, somewhere in the Mists. I suppose he actually did bring the two closer together, close enough so that the release of his power would destroy both.

That is not quite what I was referring to. Or at least, I view the "power" that Kormir absorbed and the amount of energy and magic usable by a being to be different. The power of the gods would be more of the limit, how powerful their magic can be, and their knowledge (of magic). What I meant was more of how much they can use up before tiring out (the energy bar for example). As for that power, it would have destroyed the "world" or realm they were in - the Realm of Torment. Interesting note: Some margonites call Tyria a realm, not world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Besides that..It may not be everlasting, but that wasn't my point..

You were basically saying that the dragons (at least "Grothmar") would always be twisting, thus the dragon(s) would be spewing out magic constantly, which would mean either that the dragon has to have an immense intake of energy, or it would be everlasting. And, as GW is still limit to the laws of physics, then energy cannot be everlasting. There is a need for replacement when it is used - an outsource. Which would be what the gods' bodies are, the container and outsource for the energy, while the body also regains energy which replaces what is forced out via magic and mortal things. The same thing would be the case for the dragons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

..And neither was it my point that they exceeded it, I'd think you'd know better than to think that when it comes to my views on the Ancient Dragons. My point was, if their power can rival a God's, I see no reason that it cannot be capable of generating a constant sphere of corruption.

What you quoted was an extension of what I was saying before. The dragon's energy, and thus magic, cannot be everlasting. As such, it cannot be used endlessly without an immense amount of intake. Thus your "constant sphere of corruption" would not be possible unless, again, the dragons had an immense amount of intake to replace the constantly used energy in the forum of magic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Well..Actually..If they're just a magnet for energy, or something of that nature..They could, possibly have an endless supply. Primordus has already displayed that it radiates magic, or rather, bleeds magic, suggesting they might have a more intimate connection with the Mists that transcends the barriers imposed by the Bloodstones.

A bigger connection to the Mists does not mean an endless supply, just a seemingly endless. Again, energy cannot come out of nothing, and nothing cannot turn into energy. And the most logical source of energy for the Mists would be fragments of souls (possibly material things as well, if there is some place in the universe where material things are destroyed and sent to the Mists, though I somehow doubt that).

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

We have entities of fire, water, ice, stone, igneous rock, plantlife, and what would appear to be pure energy in the Margonites. An Ancient Dragon can't have fog for wings? Also, I think it's stretching it to say those are the Blazeridge Mountains. Look at the distance from Augury Rock to the Blazeridge Mountains again, it's quite a distance. And that's ignoring the visibility in-game.

Do note that I never claimed it to be the Blazeridge, just pointed them out. I'd continue, but I'll just quote the next bit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

And I'm well aware it won't be completely accurate, but it's going to have details that we're familiar with. Currently, disregarding both our arguments, this looks like nothing we've seen in-game. Also, Augury Rock is the outpost, I was using it due to your usage of it, so I wouldn't confuse you. The Mesa is actually the stone outcropping we're talking about, the place where the Trial of Ascension takes place. Also, it can fly, and it looks to me like it just flew and grabbed on to the side of the stone outcropping, so really, I doubt it stopped on the cliffs, and then moved on to the outcropping.

Of course it's a poor argument. Both our arguments are poor, Hades, all of our arguments are poor, since we're trying to extract information from a piece of concept artwork, that may not even be related to GW2, or may even make the final cut of GW2. Sure, we have a haystack with which to grasp at straws at, but that doesn't mean one of the straws will be the needle. Torment, we've probably already pulled all the straws, or burned the haystack by this point.

Due to it being concept art, it will almost never look like it should. Go to Nolani's for instance, if you commission the same character, same armor, same pose, all instances will be different than what you imagined. If you take them to draw a landscape, you'll be lucky to get one that looks like it. If you tell them to add years onto the landscape, it will look nothing like what you see.

I knew when rebuttling that both sides of the argument were poor, and after posting, I knew you were smart enough to possibly be posing me up to make my theory look worse than it is. It is perfectly logical for the concept art to be of Augury Rock. It is also just as logical for it to be the Iron Citadel which you once said - though only if you take out the dragon. It is even more likely for it to not even be GW2 concept art. The point is, we cannot argue based on detail which you constantly desire to do. We cannot argue on facts of the art. We can only use the general description of the work and use that - which is a giant dragon who can easily match the size of Grothmar or be bigger, and a giant rock in a desert-like with plant life location that is cloudy. Arguing about "inclines" or "rocks jutting out" or "corrupted birds" are utterly pointless.

If this is GW2 art: We know it is not Primordus, we know it is not "Drakkar," it is possible but unlikely to be "Malchor," it is highly unlikely to be the Deep Sea Dragon; so that leaves us with two likelies and two possibles: "Grothmar," the Deep Sea Dragon, an unannounced dragon, and "Malchor."

I think it is pointless to speculate on even more Ancient Dragons at the moment, which gives us 3 dragons. Deep Sea Dragon is likely not to leave the sea, which gives us then 2 dragons. Of them, we know one is roughly the same size, and possible to be around the mesa (don't think I'll get why Augury Rock is the name of the outpost and not, you know, the giant rock).

Anyways, through the simple process of elimination, we can conclude that, once more, if it is GW2 concept art, it is either of "Malchor" or "Grothmar" - and due to the changes a concept art will have, pointing out the small details cannot say whether or not it is a certain location. Which, btw, Leon, if I was grasping at straws, then so were you by pointing out the same kinds of things - I just argued for while you argued against.

Operative 14 · Aug 02, 2009, 07:49 AM // 07:49

The thing is though, Augury Rock is Augury Rock. If they wanted to depict Augury rock in a piece of concept art, they would have done so. Beyond the fact that it is a vertical tower of stone, it bears little resemblance to one of the major features in Guild Wars. It would be like depicting the Ascalonian wall as a gigantic chain link fence. The scale is off, and the details are wrong. Where is the rubble from it splitting open? Where is the canyon it sits in? The topography wouldn't change that much in 250 years whether a heavy dragon had sat on it or not.

My supposition would be that it is a new feature. If that's the case, then that's not necessarily Grothmar or the Crystal Desert dragon, either. For all we know it might be Arah, or even some unknown tower in the blazeridge mountains. Or someplace on the other side of Giant's Basin for that matter.

There's not much you can glean from that piece, but I have to say I think if it were meant to be Augury rock/Mesa, then it would be depicted as such in a better way.

Gmr Leon · Aug 02, 2009, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

That's not what I was getting at, what I was getting at I also mentioned point blank below that, which was that it wouldn't be constant, which, thus, would bring up the possibility of "Grothmar" not corrupting/twisting in that scene depicted, assuming, again, that is GW2 concept art with "Grothmar."

Despite the fact that, as I pointed out in the quotes I repeatedly used, it would appear that Grothmar's corruption, unlike Malchor, Drakkar, and Primordus, is constant, and uncontrolled.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

That is not quite what I was referring to. Or at least, I view the "power" that Kormir absorbed and the amount of energy and magic usable by a being to be different. The power of the gods would be more of the limit, how powerful their magic can be, and their knowledge (of magic). What I meant was more of how much they can use up before tiring out (the energy bar for example). As for that power, it would have destroyed the "world" or realm they were in - the Realm of Torment. Interesting note: Some margonites call Tyria a realm, not world.

I suspected as much. However, unlike the Gods, which seem to become drained of energy after a large exertion of magic, or energy, the Ancient Dragons do not. Although, it depends entirely on what one views as a large exertion of magic. Due to the nature of all sentient species on Tyria not radiating magic despite being capable of using magic, suggests that if they did desire to do so for some reason, it would be a large exertion to do so. As such, it would seem that the limitation for the Ancient Dragons is much, much higher. Especially considering it might be viable to assume the Asura have been utilizing the magic radiating from Primordus for quite a few years now.

Even if that isn't correct, they've been asleep for millennia, so they're probably brimming with magic and energy.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

You were basically saying that the dragons (at least "Grothmar") would always be twisting, thus the dragon(s) would be spewing out magic constantly, which would mean either that the dragon has to have an immense intake of energy, or it would be everlasting. And, as GW is still limit to the laws of physics, then energy cannot be everlasting. There is a need for replacement when it is used - an outsource. Which would be what the gods' bodies are, the container and outsource for the energy, while the body also regains energy which replaces what is forced out via magic and mortal things. The same thing would be the case for the dragons.

Only Grothmar, is what I had meant. I imagine the uncertainty is due to using Ancient Dragon, rather than Grothmar, due to the uncertainty of whether or not it is, in fact, Grothmar. Also, how precisely can we say Tyria is completely limited to the laws of physics as we understand them? We do not, in our world, see rocks naturally floating, and we haven't discovered any method within our understanding of physics to make large buildings, without an inefficient amount of energy, float.

Magic is the wrench in the cogs of physics in a fantasy world. True, Tyria does abide by most physical laws, as we know them, but, there are several aspects that obviously undermine them as well. Dimensions, ease of teleportation, and flotation of objects. All of these, commonplace in the universe Tyria resides in, but not nearly so in ours. In the case of the latter two they are due to magic, which, because of that, shows its ability to undermine our understanding of physics, as we cannot even do what Tyrians can do with as much ease.

Even ignoring that obvious fact, the Ancient Dragons already display a characteristic that as far as I know we haven't observed in any creature. That of hibernation for millennia, in an ever changing environment.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

What you quoted was an extension of what I was saying before. The dragon's energy, and thus magic, cannot be everlasting. As such, it cannot be used endlessly without an immense amount of intake. Thus your "constant sphere of corruption" would not be possible unless, again, the dragons had an immense amount of intake to replace the constantly used energy in the forum of magic.

Or they simply utilize a means beyond our comprehension, that does not require an immense amount of intake. Or, they utilize some unusual method that we would not first think of, that has stored immense amounts of energy over the millennia to allow them to wreak the havoc they are now wreaking. In fact, this could be how they have survived throughout the millennia, linking themselves with something that stored the energy to either reactivate them or keep them alive despite possible disasters that could harm them.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

A bigger connection to the Mists does not mean an endless supply, just a seemingly endless. Again, energy cannot come out of nothing, and nothing cannot turn into energy. And the most logical source of energy for the Mists would be fragments of souls (possibly material things as well, if there is some place in the universe where material things are destroyed and sent to the Mists, though I somehow doubt that).

Energy cannot come out of nothing in our world. As I have pointed out earlier, magic is the wrench in the cogs of physics.

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The point is, we cannot argue based on detail which you constantly desire to do. We cannot argue on facts of the art. We can only use the general description of the work and use that - which is a giant dragon who can easily match the size of Grothmar or be bigger, and a giant rock in a desert-like with plant life location that is cloudy.

We can, however, argue based on details of information we know about what may be depicted in the artwork, such as the dragon in this case. We can also argue on the facts of the artwork, such as that it is of a dragon on a rock outcropping with a strange metal disc or disc-shaped engraving or metal sphere*, that there are what appear to be mountains in the distance, there are birds flying, it takes place on a plain that's sky is overcast (cloudy) which could be viewed as desert-like or of grasslands, the dragon is gigantic and has lightning coming from its mouth, and its wings appear to be foggy, misty, smokey. These are all facts of the artwork, that one can observe. Although I'm sure you're bound to say that that is what you meant by the description of the work, or that that is a description of the work, which, in the latter you are right.

*Which almost appears to burrowed into it, or drilled into it, sort of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Which, btw, Leon, if I was grasping at straws, then so were you by pointing out the same kinds of things - I just argued for while you argued against.

Oh, I know, but that's the nature of straw arguments. Everyone has a straw or a few straws they're grasping at, and each of them is easily capable of catching flame, and being left with only ashes.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 02, 2009, 08:45 AM // 08:45

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Originally Posted by Operative 14

The thing is though, Augury Rock is Augury Rock. If they wanted to depict Augury rock in a piece of concept art, they would have done so. Beyond the fact that it is a vertical tower of stone, it bears little resemblance to one of the major features in Guild Wars. It would be like depicting the Ascalonian wall as a gigantic chain link fence. The scale is off, and the details are wrong. Where is the rubble from it splitting open? Where is the canyon it sits in? The topography wouldn't change that much in 250 years whether a heavy dragon had sat on it or not.

Small details like the decline in land would probably be, overall, ignored if the focus is the dragon and the giant rock. The only real thing that supports this for not being "Mesa" would be the giant dial/plate.

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Originally Posted by Operative 14

My supposition would be that it is a new feature. If that's the case, then that's not necessarily Grothmar or the Crystal Desert dragon, either. For all we know it might be Arah, or even some unknown tower in the blazeridge mountains. Or someplace on the other side of Giant's Basin for that matter.

Like I said before, I'd rather not suppose there is a 6th dragon - though possible. It being in the Blazeridge Mountains makes sense except that the immediate area seems to be at least semi-flat. (And a side note: "Grothmar" would be the Desert Dragon, that much has been figured out, and if they aren't, then "Grothmar" disappears from the face of the Movement of the World).

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Despite the fact that, as I pointed out in the quotes I repeatedly used, it would appear that Grothmar's corruption, unlike Malchor, Drakkar, and Primordus, is constant, and uncontrolled.

.... Do you just ignore things I say?

The continuation of the thought that you quoted is in the next portion you quoted. They are, in reality, the same thing, the first cannot be fully understood without the second. In short: The first thing was a dependent clause which is attached to the second which is a independent clause.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I suspected as much. However, unlike the Gods, which seem to become drained of energy after a large exertion of magic, or energy, the Ancient Dragons do not.

There is absolutely no support for that. Just as there is no support for "Grothmar" to use his powers continuously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Although, it depends entirely on what one views as a large exertion of magic. Due to the nature of all sentient species on Tyria not radiating magic despite being capable of using magic, suggests that if they did desire to do so for some reason, it would be a large exertion to do so. As such, it would seem that the limitation for the Ancient Dragons is much, much higher. Especially considering it might be viable to assume the Asura have been utilizing the magic radiating from Primordus for quite a few years now.

Even if that isn't correct, they've been asleep for millennia, so they're probably brimming with magic and energy.

Due to a bigger size, the amount of energy stored and used would naturally be in a larger amount than most. The higher the mass, the more the energy needed to move said mass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Only Grothmar, is what I had meant. I imagine the uncertainty is due to using Ancient Dragon, rather than Grothmar, due to the uncertainty of whether or not it is, in fact, Grothmar. Also, how precisely can we say Tyria is completely limited to the laws of physics as we understand them? We do not, in our world, see rocks naturally floating, and we haven't discovered any method within our understanding of physics to make large buildings, without an inefficient amount of energy, float.

Magic is the wrench in the cogs of physics in a fantasy world. True, Tyria does abide by most physical laws, as we know them, but, there are several aspects that obviously undermine them as well. Dimensions, ease of teleportation, and flotation of objects. All of these, commonplace in the universe Tyria resides in, but not nearly so in ours. In the case of the latter two they are due to magic, which, because of that, shows its ability to undermine our understanding of physics, as we cannot even do what Tyrians can do with as much ease.

Even ignoring that obvious fact, the Ancient Dragons already display a characteristic that as far as I know we haven't observed in any creature. That of hibernation for millennia, in an ever changing environment.

I don't see how "Grothmar" can be a single exception. And as for your "floating rocks" - even magic requires energy, and magic affects other energy (kenetic, potential) which then then allow things to levitate, creations of other things, etc. It's really actually simple and the only thing you need to truly prove that magic is subject to physics is the energy bar. And I'm sure you'd ask "how can magic create things and still be subject to physics?" - Simple: Magic changes atoms in masse which would then change mass (such as air even) into other substances. Teleportation is also explainable, as is multiple dimensions (that is even explained in theoretical science). After my last post, I was considering making a little thread on this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Or they simply utilize a means beyond our comprehension, that does not require an immense amount of intake. Or, they utilize some unusual method that we would not first think of, that has stored immense amounts of energy over the millennia to allow them to wreak the havoc they are now wreaking. In fact, this could be how they have survived throughout the millennia, linking themselves with something that stored the energy to either reactivate them or keep them alive despite possible disasters that could harm them.

Doubt the first to be possible, would be rather... cheesy for the explanation - if ever given - to simply be "by unknown means" or "by unfathomable means." I would be much more inclined to think they have a direct link to the Mists and/or an unlimited (by the bloodstones) access of magic.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Energy cannot come out of nothing in our world. As I have pointed out earlier, magic is the wrench in the cogs of physics.

*points above*

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

We can, however, argue based on details of information we know about what may be depicted in the artwork, such as the dragon in this case. We can also argue on the facts of the artwork, such as that it is of a dragon on a rock outcropping with a strange metal disc or disc-shaped engraving or metal sphere*, that there are what appear to be mountains in the distance, there are birds flying, it takes place on a plain that's sky is overcast (cloudy) which could be viewed as desert-like or of grasslands, the dragon is gigantic and has lightning coming from its mouth, and its wings appear to be foggy, misty, smokey. These are all facts of the artwork, that one can observe. Although I'm sure you're bound to say that that is what you meant by the description of the work, or that that is a description of the work, which, in the latter you are right.

*Which almost appears to burrowed into it, or drilled into it, sort of.

For the side note: That is why I believe(d) that the "plate" would be from when Augury Rock opened.As for the things you point out, some of those, such as the birds, "foggy wings," and mountains would be what I mean by description of the work. We cannot say whether or not the birds are twisted, we cannot say if the wings are fog-based (which is possible) or if they are simply hidden, and we cannot say those are mountains or clouds in the background. And as those are uncertainties, we cannot properly argue on that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Oh, I know, but that's the nature of straw arguments. Everyone has a straw or a few straws they're grasping at, and each of them is easily capable of catching flame, and being left with only ashes.

The annoying part of it is that you knew that, and you continued, then called me out for it while not admitting it yourself.

draxynnic · Aug 02, 2009, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I suspected as much. However, unlike the Gods, which seem to become drained of energy after a large exertion of magic, or energy, the Ancient Dragons do not. Although, it depends entirely on what one views as a large exertion of magic. Due to the nature of all sentient species on Tyria not radiating magic despite being capable of using magic, suggests that if they did desire to do so for some reason, it would be a large exertion to do so. As such, it would seem that the limitation for the Ancient Dragons is much, much higher. Especially considering it might be viable to assume the Asura have been utilizing the magic radiating from Primordus for quite a few years now.

There's a thought... what if the radiation is the result of the 'battery' being full? Possibly the Ancient Dragons have some means of absorbing magic, but whatever that means is they can't stop it from happening, instead simply excreting their excess into the world around them. If the dragon uses magic fast enough itself, it can eventually be drained, but if it doesn't, eventually the magic its not using begins to be given off to be soaked up by whatever unfortunate wildlife is nearby.

This might explain why Grothmar is being particularly corruptive - Primordus and Malchor have likely been using their powers deliberately to establish their domains (which may involve deliberately corrupting creatures for their armies), but since Grothmar hasn't been wielding its power, it's just sweating it off instead.

On that matter, it'll be interesting to see if the ancient dragons attract Riders...

Gmr Leon · Aug 02, 2009, 05:07 PM // 17:07

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The only real thing that supports this for not being "Mesa" would be the giant dial/plate.

And for all we know, that might be one of the most essential aspects about the piece.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

.... Do you just ignore things I say?

Possibly. I have a case of tunnel vision whenever it comes to arguments sometimes. Besides that, they still seem easily capable of being understood independently of one another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

There is absolutely no support for that. Just as there is no support for "Grothmar" to use his powers continuously.

So..Abaddon isn't an example of a God becoming drained of energy? Sure, he was beaten down by the other Gods when they joined forces, but certainly even the Gods are not incapable of becoming weary. Also, we don't even know what Grothmar's powers are, we just know it corrupts everything around it. At least in the case of other Ancient Dragons we had an example of their powers. Malchor, reanimating the dead and making the living into draconic/undead minions. Primordus, twisting the earth and probably magma itself into its minions. Drakkar, seemingly, twisting the ice and snow into monstrosities. Deep Sea Dragon, twisting the water into tentacled horrors.

Each have a certain element (no pun intended) about them associated with the surrounding area. Grothmar has nothing to show for itself in that area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Due to a bigger size, the amount of energy stored and used would naturally be in a larger amount than most. The higher the mass, the more the energy needed to move said mass.

Except that we're not just talking about movement. These things are twisting the world around them quite literally into their own personal piece of reality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I don't see how "Grothmar" can be a single exception. And as for your "floating rocks" - even magic requires energy, and magic affects other energy (kenetic, potential) which then then allow things to levitate, creations of other things, etc. It's really actually simple and the only thing you need to truly prove that magic is subject to physics is the energy bar. And I'm sure you'd ask "how can magic create things and still be subject to physics?" - Simple: Magic changes atoms in masse which would then change mass (such as air even) into other substances. Teleportation is also explainable, as is multiple dimensions (that is even explained in theoretical science).

And it doesn't necessarily need to be an exception. Whichever way you look at it, to use radioactive terms, the Ancient Dragons are hot. They're just brimming with magic or energy, whichever you prefer. The only difference would be that some utilize theirs willingly and have it under control, and for some reason, Grothmar would appear not to. No matter how you look at the Ancient Dragons, it seems heavily implied from the Movement that they don't just stop amassing forces if they have the necessary resources available.

Also, flotation is the key example of an issue with the laws of physics. What, exactly, is providing it with the energy to remain suspended in the air? And assuming the Wizard's Tower in Kessex Peak is still floating, and the Sebelkeh Basilica in Vabbi is still floating, what's their energy source? You don't just keep something floating like that without an energy source.

Energy and magic need not be inextricably intertwined. Magic might be a completely different form of energy, similar in nature in certain areas, and completely different in others.

Edit: Also, forgot to add this in as I was typing up this part of my response, I'm well aware of the dimensions being explainable in theoretical science. However, according to some, some of the dimensions are absolutely minuscule. Impossible to see with the naked eye.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

For the side note: That is why I believe(d) that the "plate" would be from when Augury Rock opened.

Do I need to watch the cinematic again? Unless my memory took a severe beating, I seem to recall that it cracked open via lightning strikes from the sky hitting three points, not a disc or sphere coming from the sky and burrowing into it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

The annoying part of it is that you knew that, and you continued, then called me out for it while not admitting it yourself.

That's because my main concern wasn't with calling you out, if it had been I probably would have admitted it, but rather with getting on to arguing the points you were making. I'm the type of person who throws a stick of dynamite at the wall of a bank, and gets on to whatever my objective is within it, and then maybe goes back to get the money like a normal person.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 02, 2009, 11:15 PM // 23:15

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

And for all we know, that might be one of the most essential aspects about the piece.

Which could also easily be added to the Mesa in GW2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

So..Abaddon isn't an example of a God becoming drained of energy?

His "energy" never really is drained. Just his limit of magical use is, well, limited even more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Each have a certain element about them associated with the surrounding area. Grothmar has nothing to show for itself in that area.

If "Grothmar" is this "stormlord" then his "element" would be air and lightning, which is associated with all areas. Ice is limited to the Shiverpeaks, lava is limited to underground and the Ring of Fire Islands, water is limited to, well, water. Mlachor is limited to... life? :/ If it wasn't for Malchor, I'd so easily be able to say the dragons limit themselves to just one element each.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Except that we're not just talking about movement. These things are twisting the world around them quite literally into their own personal piece of reality.

And what you quoted kind of goes into the physics theory, and the theory continuation which i need to write up. But basically, more size requires more energy, more energy means more usability of magic, thus more magic used by them. Of course, for all the energy used, they must intake as much energy as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

And it doesn't necessarily need to be an exception. Whichever way you look at it, to use radioactive terms, the Ancient Dragons are hot. They're just brimming with magic or energy, whichever you prefer. The only difference would be that some utilize theirs willingly and have it under control, and for some reason, Grothmar would appear not to. No matter how you look at the Ancient Dragons, it seems heavily implied from the Movement that they don't just stop amassing forces if they have the necessary resources available.

Just because they are not known to stop, doesn't mean they don't. If they don't, then there is no way we'd be able to fight them, as they'll just corrupt our characters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Also, flotation is the key example of an issue with the laws of physics. What, exactly, is providing it with the energy to remain suspended in the air? And assuming the Wizard's Tower in Kessex Peak is still floating, and the Sebelkeh Basilica in Vabbi is still floating, what's their energy source? You don't just keep something floating like that without an energy source.

Energy and magic need not be inextricably intertwined. Magic might be a completely different form of energy, similar in nature in certain areas, and completely different in others.

*points at new thread* What I find the most, is that people are thinking of magic as an energy source, when it is not.

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Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Do I need to watch the cinematic again? Unless my memory took a severe beating, I seem to recall that it cracked open via lightning strikes from the sky hitting three points, not a disc or sphere coming from the sky and burrowing into it.

... the lightning hit the three symbols, and I never said something burrowed into it >_> But that it existed in there prior and after we opened it, we allowed it to be seen. Something in your mind seemed to have taken a beating to not get that...

Gmr Leon · Aug 03, 2009, 01:56 AM // 01:56

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Which could also easily be added to the Mesa in GW2.

And I still fail to see what the point of that would be. "Guys, we have a golden chamber in a massive mesa in the middle of a desert, what else can we do with this?" "Well, we never actually showed them the exterior of the chamber, and they cracked the rock off, so.." "Giant metal disc or sphere! By the Gods, you're brilliant!" "But..What? Well, we do already have a golden chamber in a giant mesa.."

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

His "energy" never really is drained. Just his limit of magical use is, well, limited even more.

I'm really, really, just getting the feeling our views on magic and energy are completely different. You don't get chained down if you aren't beaten to a point that you're either unconscious, or you're just drained of energy. Which, by the way, wasn't just the neighborhood bully and his friends beating up a nerd, as we both know. It was a war across two continents..Or..One supercontinent, whatever you want to call Tyria and Elona's geographical relationship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

If "Grothmar" is this "stormlord" then his "element" would be air and lightning, which is associated with all areas. Ice is limited to the Shiverpeaks, lava is limited to underground and the Ring of Fire Islands, water is limited to, well, water. Mlachor is limited to... life? :/ If it wasn't for Malchor, I'd so easily be able to say the dragons limit themselves to just one element each.

That's a bit of a big if, though, as I'm sure you know. It's putting far too much weight on the concept art.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

And what you quoted kind of goes into the physics theory, and the theory continuation which i need to write up. But basically, more size requires more energy, more energy means more usability of magic, thus more magic used by them. Of course, for all the energy used, they must intake as much energy as well.

Because every God and Goddess is definitely going to be the size of Abaddon or the Ancient Dragons. Kormir already disproves that by her appearing our size, and the other accounts of the Gods, such as Lyssa appearing amongst humans disprove this, and I doubt Balthazar would be gigantic as he played a game of Nui against Kaolai. So, how does one explain the Gods and Goddesses not being gigantic, yet having, as you say, more usability of magic? Or is that for your theory continuation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Just because they are not known to stop, doesn't mean they don't. If they don't, then there is no way we'd be able to fight them, as they'll just corrupt our characters.

Just because no one knew of a way to protect themselves from the corruption then, doesn't mean they haven't devised a method to do so now. The argument can work both ways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

*points at new thread* What I find the most, is that people are thinking of magic as an energy source, when it is not.

At least so you think. Magic would appear to be easily capable of being an energy source, as shown by Asuran technology. Sure, magic may just be a manipulation of the Mists, using the Mists as its energy source, but that's just an idea, as we don't completely understand the Mists. We could be completely off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

... the lightning hit the three symbols, and I never said something burrowed into it >_> But that it existed in there prior and after we opened it, we allowed it to be seen. Something in your mind seemed to have taken a beating to not get that...

You knew what I meant.

And I never said you said something burrowed into it, that's just an observation I've made of the artwork. However, what I was getting at, is that you said from when it opened, by my observation, that would suggest not lightning, but this metal thing coming from the heavens and burrowing into it. Regardless, I see the point you're making, and it still seems like a, why? sort of thing to me. Isn't a golden chamber within the mesa absurd enough?

Konig Des Todes · Aug 03, 2009, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

And I still fail to see what the point of that would be.

For all we know, it could just be the artists' decoration, no discussion and just one man's idea for some reason which may or may not be put into the game with a lore reason behind it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

I'm really, really, just getting the feeling our views on magic and energy are completely different. You don't get chained down if you aren't beaten to a point that you're either unconscious, or you're just drained of energy. Which, by the way, wasn't just the neighborhood bully and his friends beating up a nerd, as we both know. It was a war across two continents..Or..One supercontinent, whatever you want to call Tyria and Elona's geographical relationship.

For Tyria/Elona, I prefer supercontinent, just like Eurasia. But on the case of how Abaddon was chained down, well, I was focusing on when he was chained down, but the effects of the chains on him. When he was beaten, most likely, down to the point of inability to fight anymore. However, he would easily regain what he lost, unless it was limited somehow, which is where what I said comes in, his power - the amount of magic usable - was limited. Think of the chains as a magical object which puts a hex on the chained person. Along with that, it would have to continuously use magic, and thus absorb magic. Best source of the energy? The chained person, who would regain energy through rest and, in Abaddon's case, from the Mists. In other words, those chains, if I am correct, would be deadly to most people, and only not so on gods and, possibly, the Ancient Dragons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

That's a bit of a big if, though, as I'm sure you know. It's putting far too much weight on the concept art.

Not really, it's more of saying "if that is 'Grothmar' then we can assume he is associated with air, if that isn't, then we know nothing more."

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Because every God and Goddess is definitely going to be the size of Abaddon or the Ancient Dragons. Kormir already disproves that by her appearing our size, and the other accounts of the Gods, such as Lyssa appearing amongst humans disprove this, and I doubt Balthazar would be gigantic as he played a game of Nui against Kaolai. So, how does one explain the Gods and Goddesses not being gigantic, yet having, as you say, more usability of magic? Or is that for your theory continuation?

A common concept in various other kinds of ideas of how "power is represented by size" is that those of immense power can "show" it in a manner that it would be perceived as much weaker than it would be believed.

Putting that into GW context: A God's size is naturally the size we see Abaddon, however they have the ability, through magic, to change their own appearance. The Ancient Dragons have this ability, but perhaps not the desire or mind to do so. Perhaps, in the case of Kormir, she was restricting herself to her old body immediately for our conversation. However, the thought comes to my mind: If kept to a small size for too long, it may be possible that the body would fail to contain all the power of a god.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Just because no one knew of a way to protect themselves from the corruption then, doesn't mean they haven't devised a method to do so now. The argument can work both ways.

Grothmar's corruption is most recent, there is no hint in the Movement of such occuring. Though possible for such a method to appear in GW2 itself, perhaps even as a blessing from the gods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

At least so you think. Magic would appear to be easily capable of being an energy source, as shown by Asuran technology. Sure, magic may just be a manipulation of the Mists, using the Mists as its energy source, but that's just an idea, as we don't completely understand the Mists. We could be completely off.

Technically, any reaction from the use of energy, can be energy. I merely meant people view magic as being an alternative source when it is instead a alternative reaction which will continue energy to other things - much like riding a bicycle, or rowing a boat. One's own movement is caused by energy (which has its own sources), and one's own movement is also a source of movement, thus the movement is energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

You knew what I meant.

And I never said you said something burrowed into it, that's just an observation I've made of the artwork. However, what I was getting at, is that you said from when it opened, by my observation, that would suggest not lightning, but this metal thing coming from the heavens and burrowing into it. Regardless, I see the point you're making, and it still seems like a, why? sort of thing to me. Isn't a golden chamber within the mesa absurd enough?

Not if it was instead rock which, through the ages, rose around a building. In which case, the "disc" would be a portion of this building, specifically, the exterior of the "golden chamber". After all, the walls we see are not carved rock, but something extremely similar to what we see in the Hall of Heroes. Which, if anything, can be viewed as architecture of the gods. Thus, if the "disc" is in fact a design of the exterior of a building which got covered by rock and earth, is it really that absurd?

And no, the building thing actually wouldn't be grasping at straws. The existence of the chamber means it was burrowed into before, meaning something was added to the exterior later - naturally or not - which would be what we see destroyed by lightning. We also see non-natural, or even carved, walls inside, which means there would be a non-natural exterior to this chamber, which means, if inside a rock could mean that the rock was added after wards.

Gmr Leon · Aug 04, 2009, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Ch eck mate.

And here we are..